Muffinresearch Labs by Stuart Colville

Python or PHP? | 17 Comments

Posted in Snippets on 27th November 2007, 11:04 pm by

Recently I’ve been having interesting discussions with Ed and Cyril regarding some of the differences between PHP and Python and what makes each one special. So I’m interested to know what are the things you love about PHP or Python? What features made you choose one over the other? If you’re a lurker then this would be a prime opportunity to de-lurk!

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  • http://www.kryogenix.org/ Stuart Langridge

    PHP is easier to deploy, because most web stuff already has it; Python for web stuff requires you to ponce about with mod_python or fastcgi or something.
    Python’s way better for desktop apps; PHP is really bad for that.

    Python’s namespacing makes it very clean: PHP’s everything-built-in annoys me every time I use it.

    Small-ish web apps I tend to do in PHP; it’s so quick to be able to just stick up a few .php pages and not have the cognitive burden of “setting up” a site like you have to do with something Python-based like Django. Serious stuff I tend to do in Python.

    I also find Python to be intuitive in a way that PHP isn’t; I keep having to look up PHP function names (it’s so annoying that, say, doing anything to do with an Array is a global function rather than a method on the array. Also, array_foo for everything except array_length, which is called “count”. Etc, etc. Python makes more sense to me.) However, that’s subjective; some people find Python confusing (amazingly).

  • http://www.ejeliot.com/ Ed Eliot

    I’d say it doesn’t really matter. Both work well so pick which ever you feel most comfortable with. I’d agree with most of Stuart’s points. PHP has less of a hit to get set up and chances are most of the libraries you might want to use are installed on any half reasonable hosting solution. I haven’t looked at Python much but did have some pain getting MySql support installed and generally it feels like a more involved process.

    One word of caution I would raise. I think it generally doesn’t take long to get up to speed with a new language but it does take time to understand the intricacies of that language. I think in that in between stage one has to be really careful on a security and performance front to ensure that lack of in depth understanding doesn’t result in security holes or reduced performance.

  • http://www.ejeliot.com/ Ed Eliot

    Oh, and my preference is PHP but that comes purely from knowing it really, really well. Perhaps when I’ve had time to look properly at Python I’ll change my mind.

  • http://www.isolani.co.uk/blog. Isofarro

    Python probably wins on RESTful APIs, better HTTP libraries, better Character encoding handling, better socket libraries. Writing this stuff in PHP is tedious and fraught with difficulty. Python just looks cleaner for building such applications.

  • http://cyril.doussin.name Cyril Doussin

    What I have done so far in Python boils down to Django sites essentially.
    It goes without saying that Django is an absolute pleasure to use and using a framework like this almost makes you forget which language you are using sometimes.
    But anyway, with my (unfortunately) limited experience, here is my take on the PHP vs Python issue (in random order):

    * PHP is dead simple, Python has a slight more complex learning curve.
    This is essentially because PHP is at heart a templating language, with other features such as the object model built on top of it, whereas Python is a general purpose language, architecture from the ground up to support.

    * Introspection in PHP is still too limited, or at least doesn’t feel right to me, yet. I’m sure this will get improved version after version. Once again this is mainly a concern for object-oriented codebases, and once again this comes down to the actual nature of the languages at stake: PHP is originally a template language, when 99% of Python is built on object-oriented concepts.

    * PHP is almost entirely used for web development and is readily available in every web hosting environment. Python is also present in most web development environments, but as a normal interpreter, it is much more rare to find mod_python ready for use. It is even more rare to find web hosting environments ready for use with Django, Turbo Gears or any other popular Python webdev framework. Quite a few newish web hosting companies have setup solutions for this now though (Textdrive, Webfaction, Media Temple, Dreamhost etc can all run at least Django without a problem I believe).

    * Python’s enforced code indentation is brilliant. It has never gotten in the way for me but it has for direct result to make any Python code readable. Many times, even in professional environments have I seen messy unreadable PHP code. I have never been able to not read easily Python code developed by third parties.

    * PHP is still missing or mis-implementing important features which any serious development project requires. In my mind the object model still mostly sucks. Unicode support is still not there. Namespacing was dropped from PHP5 as it was considered “syntactic sugar” (I call BS). On the other hands when I started using Python I discovered all these (and more) were non-issues and were implemented in a clean, consistent and performant way. Unicode support rocks. Modules rock.

    * The “Pythonic” way of programming is not an obvious thing to get, until you have had the chance of spending quality time (as in full blown projects, 8 hours a day) working with it. But whenever you start implementing something the way you’d do it in PHP or Java (?), and then discover how to do it “the Python way” it comes as a true revelation.

    * If you’re after a web development framework, you will find PHP solutions that are ok but won’t make your life that much easier overall. If you’d like to focus more on your actual product but still having a high quality codebase, then what you really want is Django. And Django is really that good, only because it’s written in Python. It makes use of Python idioms which make it possible to reduce the size of the product codebase without relying on black magic. Ain’t no RoR or PHP-based framework.

    * Python is just as good for writing desktop software, web application backend, web application front-end, administration scripts, data-mining applications, high-performance networking libraries and the list goes on and on… Python is still an interpreted language and therefore may not perform as well in some situations as its compiled alternatives. Enters Pyrex!

    * PHP’s documentation with its user comments rocks. Take it away and PHP would become more of a pain to learn. The Python dev crew is apparently catching up these days and the docs for 2.6 (or 3 maybe) should also support user comments I believe.

    * PHP is universally recognised as the default solution for web development. Python is not and this makes it harder to get Python recognised as a valid language for a web project.

    * The quality of libraries publicly available for Python is vastly superior to PHP ones (and the code is actually readable as mentioned before). Some PEAR stuff really sucks.

    * I actually stopped reading any PHP development sites or blogs, apart from the official PHP.net announcements. The level of debate in the PHP community was frankly appalling a couple of years ago and I doubt it would be the opposite now. On the other hand any Python-related readings I’ve done so far have remained quite professional and focus on how to make things better (as opposed to the “mine is bigger” mentality some core PHP developers had/have).

    So to sum it up, I’ll keep using PHP for quick one-page web scripts. I am now using Python for anything big enough to be called a project, along with Django if I feel a framework is necessary.

  • http://intranation.com/ Brad Wright

    Well there’s not much one could reasonably add after Cyril’s well-reasoned argument, but just to re-enforce:

    I’ve not really used Python much, but I’ve been writing PHP for a while (5+ years). I don’t necessarily think it’s fair to say that bad libraries are PHP’s fault, as that’s a necessary evil of a language being the de-facto standard and being so easy to adopt–bad coders will come and write bad code in it. Look at Javascript if you don’t believe me.

    Regardless, PHP can be used elegantly and in a web-friendly way if used correctly and with an eye towards maintainability. Ridiculous OO syntax and features don’t necessarily lend themselves towards your average website anyway, so I’d argue this isn’t always necessary for a normal site.

    Also, the widespread adoption of PHP (and its partner in dev MySQL) make the “write once run anywhere” maxim almost true for that duo. This goes a long way towards affecting your choice of language for a project.

    As far as syntax goes, Python certainly looks more elegant–I just need to find some time to have a proper look. ;)

  • http://morethanseven.net Gareth

    Interesting that, increasingly, good PHP people have been playing with other languages – in particular it seems – Python.

    I like using both for different things. Python for throwing things around on the command line, general purpose scripting and the like. I’m pretty happy with PHP for either small web stuff (it’s fast) and for bigger bits and pieces (now using symfony).

    Agree that PHP frameworks don’t make life easier, but they do make your code better (as you say – security, internationalisation, encourage good practice, etc.

  • http://muffinresearch.co.uk Stuart Colville

    @everyone: There’s been some excellent points made above, thanks for sharing your views.

    Up until now I’ve used PHP much more for web stuff but I am really interested in being able to play with using Python for simple scripts on the web. Normally I tend to resort to using PHP for this as it’s just so much quicker. I really wish there was a quick way to be able to bung a .py file up onto a web-server without having to think about it.

    Probably what I need to do is look at the Django handler and then write something generic suited for this task; if anyone has any good pointers in this area then please let me know, I’ve no doubt someon has already done this.

    For bigger web-apps I’ve been using Django. The more that I use it the more I love it, it’s simple extensible and well thought out. It’s great to use something that allows you to get on with building the interesting parts of your application. In addition I’m impressed with how easy it is to add to the generic stuff that’s built-in. Part of this is purely down to Python’s flexibility.

    I like the feel of coding in Python much more than PHP; partly this is down to syntax, but also idiom.
    Although some idioms seem a little daunting at first I’ve grown to really appreciate them. I now find myself spending a little longer until I find a more ‘Python’ way of expressing something. I think all of this adds up to making Python code much more consistent overall and less mutated by people’s own coding preferences. Naturally the enforced indentation seems strange at first I’ve come to love it as it makes code so much more readable.

    On the whole for me the Python bug has really bitten. Since creating TweetyPy as a fun project for learning the language (I’m currently working on a complete re-write) I’m really sold on using it for everything I can. I’ve still got time for PHP and naturally being the chosen server-side scripting language at YAHOO I’ll be continuing to use it for the foreseeable, however, at every opportunity where Python can be used and it makes sense to do so, Python is my preference.

  • http://www.kryogenix.org/ Stuart Langridge

    It is pretty easy to just chuck up a Python file; just make it a CGI. It’s slower, of course, but just name it whatever.cgi, stick AddHandler cgi-script .cgi in your .htaccess, and use Python’s cgi modile to get form data. Pow, done. I do this all the time for small stuff.

  • http://muffinresearch.co.uk Stuart Colville

    @Stuart: cheers for the tip I’ll take a look at that. Sounds like the best solution for quick experiments.

  • http://www.talkphp.com/ Adam

    Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but I think if PHP included namespaces, cleaned up their function naming conventions – or introduced one, and moved a lot of the default functions off into namespaces, then PHP will become rather untouchable, I feel.

  • http://www.aviongoo.com Jeff

    I’ve just attempted to use a python sample program on 3 of the 5 servers I use for PHP applications. All I got was a list of the sample text. I named the program ‘sample.py’ and on my PC the little green snake appears.

    Until the hosting servers I use support Python out of the box, like they do with PHP, there is no question which language I prefer – PHP.

  • mozey

    I have been coding in both languages. Short answer is, PYTHON.

  • http://icspace.org Tom

    I started off with PHP at version 4 about 5 years ago, from nothing and it was a great way to learn how to program as object oriented concepts got introduced into the language, but now as I mature as a programmer and have found php to be a bit frustrating as I need to deliver more and more professional solutions in less time. I have been inspired by the django approach though and will now take the plunge and download and intall everything to build my first django site on python. Cross your fingers and wish me luck!

  • http://blog.eood.cn Drupal developer

    I wrote PHP python java Erlang.
    I think PHP is my favorite.

  • http://www.jrtayloriv.net Jesse Taylor

    I’ve recently been thinking about migrating to Python from PHP as well. I’ve always hated PHP, and have only used it out of necessity. Python is by no means perfect, but it’s clearly a superior language to PHP. Anyhow, the comments here were very helpful and made for interesting reading.

  • www.phpnerd.uphero.com Clever

    In my opinion PHP is a easier language to learn but its really powerful. I have been coding in php for almost 2 years and found it very good. Python on the other hand is a really powerful language but not so easy to learn. Python has a better approach on security that php. But if i have a option between python and php i would chose php.

GNU screen: open tab in current working directory|(1)

A nice trick for having screen open a new tab in the same directory as the one you’re currently in. To use it add it to your .screenrc

# Open new window in current dir.
bind c stuff "screen -X chdir \$PWD;screen^M"
bind ^c stuff "screen -X chdir \$PWD;screen^M"

Hat tip: mteckert on SuperUser.com

Ubuntu: add-apt-repository: command not found|(3)

When you’re using a minimal Ubuntu install if you find the ‘add-apt-repository’ command is missing (it’s useful for adding PPAs and other repositories), then simply run:

sudo apt-get install python-software-properties

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